Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello, and welcome to humanity. A podcast that shines light on conversations of humanness and creativity. I'm the creator and host Adam Williams. Today. I'm talking with sister I Adama Dera sister Aja is a, becuna a Buddhist nun who has lived, worked in practice in Buddhist monasteries. And now does so independently around the world, these past 20 or so years. But first humanity has highlighted the voices of others in their expressions of humanist and creativity. Since the summer of 2017. This is the fifth episode of the humanity podcast. However, there have been more than 80 interviews published at the Humana two website, Humana to.co as the creator and publisher of these interviews do humanity website. And now this podcast series, this work for me is a huge ongoing expression of my own humanist and creativity. With that in mind, I invite you to consider empowering humanity, to keep growing and to keep pulling at this human thread.
Speaker 0 00:00:58 We all share through these conversations of humanness and creativity. I invite you to consider subscribing to the podcast and the Humana to newsletter into sharing the podcast on social media and of telling friends and family. And now in this conversation with iodine Madeira, we talk about such essential aspects of humanness. There are lessons of letting go and of allowing and reflections on loss and impermanence, as well as stories of remarkable resilience and joy. This is a story of stepping into one's fullness while flowing with the ups and downs of the human experience. Something that surely resonates with our own stories. We get into I, his upbringing in a Catholic family and the family tragedy that scent, I inward with her spiritual questions at 12 years old, we talk about what carried Aja from her young adult life as a married school teacher, across the transom from lay person to ordained Buddhist monastic, and there's courage to face the ages, old glass ceiling of a certain Buddhist tradition along with other noteworthy insights. But at this point, I'll let you wait to hear them directly from AIA. I am honored to have this conversation with sister Aja, DAMA Dera, and to learn from her quest for deeper knowing here it is
Speaker 0 00:02:23 Madeira. Welcome to the Humana to studio. Thank you. It's good to be here, Adam. I have been looking forward to this conversation and I just think there's so much tremendous, uh, area that we can talk about today. So I'm just going to start off with jumping in to something that I, I suspect is a broad preconception at least of lay people like myself. And that is I suspect that we think of people who live in the monastic life, a none among a priest and sort of place them in this lofty plane as if they were almost preordained from birth for this life. And I wonder if we, then don't always know how to interact with someone as if maybe I'm not spiritual enough, maybe I don't know the right words to use to talk the actions. What is your truth within that context? Am I making this up? Is this just more revealing about me or is this common? Are you experiencing this from others?
Speaker 2 00:03:24 Well, it does happen from time to time, but all people have to do is spend a little time with me and that illusion gets dispelled. Or if you ask my family, they don't place me on a pedestal. Um, I try to be somebody who's very accessible and down to earth. And so, you know, if people just spend some time with me, I think they will realize I'm a normal human being.
Speaker 0 00:03:48 I think that that might be part of what brought this question to my mind, because I have had the opportunity to be with you, um, and, and kind of group settings a couple of times and get a chance to know and realize that this might've been my own preconceived notions because I have great honor and respect. I have had the opportunity to travel in places, some of where you have been such as Thailand and India and to encounter people, um, that I hold respect for because of those commitments to their faith. But I've also realized that I might feel a little shy or bashful about, well, how do I approach this person? But here we are sitting in the studio to have this conversation. And, you know, I, I feel like you absolutely are relatable and approachable. And I thank you for that for showing me that,
Speaker 2 00:04:38 Oh, you're very welcome in certain cultures. There, there is a sort of a, a role that a monastic place and people put them in this category as someone kind of above, but here in the West, that doesn't happen so often. And, um, you know, if you're used to it or you want it to be happening, you can be upset or disappointed. Like, Oh, people aren't treating me that way, that I'm supposed to get treated, but that just shows your ego there. And, and so I think in a way being here in the West, it, it really is a challenge to cut through all that. I mean, not only for the people who I'm encountering, but for myself, that questioning who is this person is just this outer shell. And yes, it has some significance. There's a, something about the dedication I brought to this way of life. But it doesn't mean that, you know, underneath, I don't have feelings and doubts and anxieties and things like other people,
Speaker 0 00:05:50 The typical vulnerabilities that we all experience. Yeah. Okay. So now that we've approached to that, which to me seems like a very important question. Um, I want to ask if we step back, where did your early connection sense of maybe expression or the shaping pieces of your faith and spirituality begin in your life?
Speaker 2 00:06:18 Okay, well, when I was a youngster, I had a spiritual leaning, even as a child, I grew up Catholic. I was one of five children right in the middle and going to church, going to mass was actually quite significant to me. And when I was a teenager, I was in the youth group, um, got involved in the music group and it was, it was something that in my heart meant something. But then as a lot of youngsters, they go through periods of questioning and I did. And so I would find myself wondering about this or that, and not really finding the answers that I was seeking and being told rather, just to believe, and that didn't really work for 15 year old. So even though I wasn't a rebellious kid, I just thought, ah, this isn't, this isn't really meeting my deeper need. I'm going to go and search elsewhere.
Speaker 2 00:07:21 So I ran into other friends who were interested in spiritual pursuits and, you know, explore it a bit, but I never ever imagined that I would become a non or a Buddhist. It kind of snuck up on me. I, I kind of went away from any kind of formal spiritual or religious life, um, when I was in college. And then it wasn't until later, um, when I was married and, you know, things were getting Rocky and I was finding that I needed more peace in my life. I needed to come back to that inner search, even though I had many things in my life that were pleasurable, um, exciting. I was very involved with outdoor activities, things that I enjoyed doing. Um, my school teacher that was meaningful to me, but there was something of an undercurrent that, that had been just not exactly suppressed, but just ignored.
Speaker 2 00:08:29 And so I felt I needed to come back to that. And that's when I started to find out more about meditation and found that it really helped with the emotional, um, turmoils and, and what I was experiencing at that time. And, um, gradually went to retreats and, you know, spent longer time. And eventually a friend of mine told me about a monastery England, and I was not at all interested in traveling to England. Maybe if they had said, Oh, you want to go to Borneo or Kenya or something, I'd say, yeah, but England, well, I thought, okay, I'll just see what it's like. Um, and at that time I still wasn't thinking, sign me up. I'm going to be a nun. It was more like, I'll see what it's like. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:09:20 So it's interesting. You brought up the questioning thing because that was one thing I'd wonder about. It certainly is something I had experienced myself. I grew up in, uh, in going to church in a family that, um, believed in that my parents were preachers as well. And I certainly questioned. And so I do think that there's a natural flow of that, especially as we get to those teenage years, we're questioning things in general in life with that for you. I'm curious if there was any particular mischief, um, sort of, uh, an honorary newness that you're like, I'm trying to buck the system as I express or find my own understanding in the world. Or did you feel like you really towed that line and then maybe it was later in adult years where you kind of really try to explore more openly on your own?
Speaker 2 00:10:08 Yeah, the ladder, um, when I was younger, I was actually quite timid. I towed the line most of the time. I mean, it wasn't like I didn't have any mischief in me. I did, but it was very secret, you know, I wasn't outwardly rebellious. And so when I was seeking, um, a different path, a different spiritual, um, understanding it wasn't to be rebellious, it wasn't to, um, go away from my family or anything like that. It wasn't until when I was in my twenties that I felt like now I can explore and try to be free. And, um, that had its limits too. You know, there was a lot of fun in that, but I ran up against some of the things that, that showed me. Well, I really do want to, to look deeper at what is the source of the Amherst and not just rebel. I mean, I think there's always going to be a part of that in people's lives. I think when it is, because a lot had been suppressed when I was a child, I kind of kept things down. Try to be the good girl. I think that did come out more in my twenties, but I saw that it didn't always have the best results.
Speaker 0 00:11:35 How do you mean that? Is that for you in terms of progress, positive progress in your life? Or do you mean in maybe in the way it affected people around you or, or how is that?
Speaker 2 00:11:46 I would say more about the way it affected people around me. I think all, all of its progress in a sense, even if it looks like retrograde motion or something. Yeah. It looks like you're going backwards. Yeah. There's the experience and you learn, okay, I go down this road and I trip and I fall, therefore I better kind of get up and watch my step a little bit better. And in the meantime, maybe I crash over a few things and cause a little bit of damage. And so yeah, that really, really got to me is, is the, the harm I could cause others, if I'm not careful,
Speaker 0 00:12:24 I'm curious how your family, uh, that was, it sounds like very much devoted in Catholicism to his Catholic faith, to the upbringing of his children. How did they respond when you went searching for something that felt possibly a little truer to you found your own path and it happened to be Buddhism?
Speaker 2 00:12:48 Well, they really weren't happy at all. My mother being more, most devout thought it was a godless religion, and I was bowing to an idol and she was not at all happy. In fact, they sent my mother, I think my mother was the person who was sent over to rescue me because for all they knew I was in a Colt. And so, um, I had been there about nine months. I was getting ready to take the novice ordination and my mom came for a visit and she really intended to take me back home.
Speaker 0 00:13:23 And this is that when you were at the monastery in England, nine months there and she, I I'm, I'm now sort of putting myself in your mother's shoes thing and she's flying over the Atlantic ocean she's on her way. And in her mind, this is incredibly significant important. There's maybe, you know, anxiety and hurt and all these things like she's going to rescue her daughter. Right. How did that go?
Speaker 2 00:13:52 Well, I think she saw that it was really not a terrible place. I think she might've expected the worst and she saw that people were kind and the place was kept up. Well, it wasn't, you know, I wasn't being sleep deprived. I wasn't being forced to do anything really crazy. Um, I think she was very disappointed when she left though. Um,
Speaker 0 00:14:21 Because you were staying
Speaker 2 00:14:23 Stayed. Yeah. Um, we left, she left like the day before my birthday. And I think that the plan was that I'd come back with her and they'd all celebrate my birthday. And she left the day before without me empty handed. Yeah. And we had gone and we did a few travels together, which was really nice cause I wanted her to have a good time. I could, um, I could drive at that time still. So we, we went across, um, took a ferry across to Ireland, um, having Irish heritage. She wanted to be, you know, experience Ireland. So we did that. We had a nice time traveling and I think she saw that, that also showed her. I could go, I could leave the monastery. I wasn't a captive. And so I think it dispelled probably the worst of her fears, but I imagine there was still a lot of disappointment. She didn't really speak openly about it on the one level. I think she wanted to respect my choice, but inwardly, she couldn't conduct.
Speaker 0 00:15:27 Did you have conversations at any point? I mean, this was, we're talking 20 or so years ago. Right. Okay. Have there been conversations with her at any point since to have, I feel like reconciliation is maybe too strong of a word, but, but maybe again for her, it feels like a need to be able to reconcile these different ideas in mind, not necessarily the relationship, but at least, you know, what, what has come to be because this, this was not a passing fancy for you.
Speaker 2 00:15:55 Right? Right. They were, they were hoping it was a passing fancy. They thought it was a phase I'd go through. And I could never, never last in a monastery because I was too, you know, active outdoors and things like that. How could I just be sitting around all day? Um, and they were, they were probably very surprised. And when I recall that time with my mother about her trip out and we, how we went to Ireland, of course she loves the trip and she just says, yeah, I wish you, weren't just such a stick in the mud. I wanted to go to the pubs and you wouldn't want to go. But, um, later on, um, like a dozen years after that, I took a higher ordination when I was back in California, um, to be fully ordained as a Bhikkhuni and it was in LA. So it was very close to where they lived and my mom still wouldn't come. She says, I love you as my daughter, but I can't condone what you're doing. My father and my brother came, which I was touched by. You know,
Speaker 0 00:17:01 I want to step back because there's something that I know in, in the family's history that is tremendous. And I can only imagine further factored into perspectives of you, your mother, the whole family on some of this. And that is you had, you were one of five, but when you were 12, there was an experience, a tragic occurrence in the family. And that is when your 14 year old sister was killed riding her bicycle. Yeah. I can imagine that was something on your mom's mind and heart when she's thinking. And another daughter who has gone off into this thing that I don't understand, I'd like to understand what you can share about how you, how the family processed that trauma again, when you were 12 years old.
Speaker 2 00:17:52 Yeah. That is very important piece actually. Um, it's what prompted my search, you know, um, from just going along with the motions of going to church, which I say, you know, was somewhat significant to me, but I wanted to go deeper. I mean, this is a person I lived my whole life with. My sisters was only 14 months older. So every day of my life, there was a person in the room in the next bed and then gone in one day, just gone. And so it was a shock, very big shock to the whole family. And it drove me inward. It's sad because as a family, we didn't process this. We didn't talk about it. There was no open grieving. There was everybody kind of going into their own corner and coping in the best way they could. It was really hard on the family.
Speaker 0 00:18:57 Did you see anything even between your parents and support for each other or was it truly just every individual left in the family trying to work through this on their own and not necessarily even having someone else in the family to go to about it?
Speaker 2 00:19:14 I think it was pretty much everyone on their own. My parents went through a Rocky phase as is often the case after a child passes. And, um, I think they all were dealing with their own emotions, you know, whether it was guilt or a sense of, um, you know, we did something wrong. We weren't allowed to ride a bicycle for a while after that, which felt a bit like punishment and eventually that was lifted. But, um,
Speaker 0 00:19:48 How did you feel about writing at that point? Because it's, I mean, I look at that as, as kind of a quintessential activity, it is symbolizes childhood, that sense of joy play freedom, wind in your hair. Um, and the rural came down, no one in the house is doing that now.
Speaker 2 00:20:08 Yeah. Yeah. I felt a bit like I lost my childhood at that time and I was just weeks away from my 13th birthday. So I, you know, I just, I really withdrew within myself.
Speaker 0 00:20:23 How long did you go without writing?
Speaker 2 00:20:26 You know, I don't remember exactly. It seemed like a long time, a couple of years. And to this day, when I'm on a bicycle, it feels like freedom. It feels like a life
Speaker 0 00:20:35 That is your primary transportation now. Right. That's right. And even in the monastery in England, you were not allowed, is that correct?
Speaker 2 00:20:44 Yes, because we wear these robes and it's not seen to be fitting to be riding a bicycle. We, if we needed go anywhere, um, people would drive us. So we had our needs met and fortunately we could walk around and enjoy the English countryside, which was very beautiful. But yeah. Now when, since I've come to Colorado, I started riding a bicycle to do errands and things, which is a departure from the traditional way that monks and nuns and our tradition operate.
Speaker 0 00:21:20 Okay. And I want to get to some of those differences and what you're doing now, I'm in a little bit, but first I want to go ahead and, and bring up. You would also lose a brother when he was 23 to lymphoma. You mentioned becoming a school teacher. You mentioned marriage, there's the love and the loss in that. And all throughout this time in this process, these are tremendous significant human experiences. Some of which, none of us will ever know personally have something similar in our lives. And then it was what, around your early thirties, when you go to England nine months, you are a, uh, a lay practitioner, correct. Before taking ordination as a novice. Right. Okay. So I'm curious what you came to understand throughout all of that throughout all of that, your experience as a lay person and where that brought you to this pivot point, sort of a transition.
Speaker 0 00:22:20 There's a, there's a transom there between say if I just make it a nice, even number 30 years of a life, as a Catholic, as a lay person and an American for how that cultural aspect might factor in, and then life as a Buddhist who has been ordained and now for about 20 years and living in, I mean, you've lived in monasteries in England, Burma, Thailand, India, and in the U S in California, correct. And Australia. Okay. So you've certainly with that commitment have gone and experienced a breadth of, of life in the world in that. Um, so what is it from your experience as a lay person from that portion, that chapter of your life that you brought into where you are today and in the past 20 years of, uh, you know, that, that practice?
Speaker 2 00:23:15 Well, I'd say the thread that runs through it all is the kind of inner gut knowing of impermanence that things shift and things change and things have a tendency to fall apart. And that, that is not terrible. It's just the way things are. And it has a profound effect on my life and other people's lives. So, um, I was close to my little brother. He was seven years than I, and he was kind of an inspiration for me to become a school teacher. I didn't really have a lot of self direction going into college. And when it came towards the end and I wondered, what am I going to do with the social sciences degree? It was like, Hmm. I liked helping my little brother with his homework. It felt really good. It felt like I was really contributing and helping somebody out. And I think that's, that made me think that that's what I could contribute.
Speaker 2 00:24:14 Plus I have always had a kind of creative flair. And so once I got to teaching elementary school, I found I could weave together a whole bunch of ideas and, and try to make it interesting and help people learn. And that was something that was very satisfying, but even that changed. And so, you know, I, I saw that, you know, nothing in life lasts forever. And if I want to try to hold on to it tightly, I'm going to suffer over that. If I can learn to let go, then that would be a lot easier. And it doesn't mean not caring, letting go doesn't mean I just dismiss whatever I'm feeling or what other people are feeling, but, but that I'm, I'm not demanding things to be a certain way.
Speaker 0 00:25:11 We letting go is such a challenge, such a practice for those even who are committed in any spiritual or faith based practice. Um, for me, that's with yoga. You and I have had some conversation interaction around that and there is overlap. Some of it is in language. Some of it is in practice a little bit. And this idea is something I had read recently about our struggle with letting go being the gap between, uh, our ego and this sense of what we tell ourselves, well, this is the way it should be. This is the way the person should have spoke to me. This is the way that job or that opportunity in the world should have happened, or that thing should not have happened instead of letting go of our notions of that organized ideal. And then working with this is what is always looking with equanimity at this is what is,
Speaker 2 00:26:11 Yes, it's, it's a good point you make, because letting go, doesn't have to be just with really big changes in life. Doesn't have to be just with, you know, people who pass away or, um, you know, moving from a big place to another, but we have expectations and hopes about all kinds of things in our lives. Like you say, the way we interact on a daily basis with people, things don't pan out the way we want. Um, and, and that letting go can be really powerful in relationship to allow another person to be the way they are, instead of wanting them to be the way you want them to be
Speaker 0 00:26:55 Or think they should be in order to satisfy that, that image or ideal in her mind. Yeah. And it certainly is an ongoing practice. If we go back for a moment to that idea, that someone who has chosen and committed to and been ordained into the monastic life, that it's. So I feel like it's easy for us to place those, those people to place yourself on a pedestal as if you somehow have something in you that is, you know, this, this magical, perfect saintly kind of idea. When really we all have this in common, I would say you and your dedication make such a committed effort to practices like letting go along with many others, right? It's about that devotion, which is not so dissimilar from your mother's devotion to Catholicism. Maybe there is common ground there.
Speaker 2 00:27:48 Well, there, there is of course, some common ground, but my devotion, I don't regard myself as highly devotional. The change from going from say Catholicism to a Buddhist practice is more about reflecting on the cause of suffering that comes from within. So it's not so much that something out there is either the cause or what I'm striving to emulate as much as trying to understand myself and why certain behaviors come about what's happening in my mind, what's my, um, misunderstandings or misperceptions. How do that, how does that get in the way in my relationships? And just keep looking back inwardly, not in a way that, um, you know, to feel guilty or feel shame about, but to really understand and grow from that
Speaker 0 00:28:58 You experienced Catholic upbringing and with some devotion at that time. And certainly with that being modeled for you, I grew up in church and now here we both are, um, we both have throughout our lives considered other possibilities. And those that are inward facing inward oriented, like you just described. And it has occurred to me over time that something about the church, the dogmatic approach is we're. If we're made in the likeness of God, as I remember being taught as a child in church, but somewhere along the way, then it quickly, it becomes a separation that we are not God, that this stuff is external, that we are trying to please this external thing. And that there is this higher pedestal thing that we're worshiping this idea. And with a spiritual practice that is turned inward, I see strength and empowerment from within. Does that resonate for you? I don't know if I eloquently enough spelled that out. What I have been mulling over for some time, basically one is dogmatic and external. One is where we turn inward and recognize our own relationship to life and can find empowerment and that there is divine worth within us as originally we were born with.
Speaker 2 00:30:37 Yeah, it's a radical shift, um, from this concept of original sin and always trying to be that, um, perfect person that can live up to these ideals, which I tried to do and obviously failed, um, in a number of ways, but to be able to, um, not just dismiss that lightly and say, Oh, well, you know, we're, I'm just human. I, I, I screw up, but really trying to see that there might've been fear that got in the way or something that blocked me from that, that source of goodness, that is always there. Um, and so it is coming in word is, is not about trying to be the greatest ego around, you know, but more about finding something that's truer than the persona and truer than the image we think we have to be, or that we think that society wants us to be, or that we think our family or religion demands us to be finding something that's truer and deeper than all of that.
Speaker 0 00:31:57 Okay. I want to go back to where you first go to monastery. The first monastery you go to it's in England. And I'm curious about what you found there, what you were looking for and hoping to find in that, in that experience, um, being in that space with others who also had made a similar journey, perhaps, and when you found out what it actually was, was there a gap between that should and what is,
Speaker 2 00:32:27 I could say I didn't go with expectations, but, uh, I think that's false. I think we often go with expectations and don't realize it until they're not met. So in this monastery, the people came from different countries around the world and we were living together 24 seven. I mean, the monks were, the males were on one side and the females on another, but we still interacted. And I remember thinking I had three hurdles to overcome before I took this a higher level of ordination there. And the first one I asked myself was, is this the most valuable thing I could do for the world? You know, I had been a school teacher and I always thought that was a pretty good thing. You're helping children learn. You're a significant part of their life. And, but what about this? Is this going to be significant for anybody other than maybe myself at best?
Speaker 2 00:33:32 And I thought, well, you know, I can't really help other people unless I have my own stuff together. You know, I'm not saying I have to be a Saint and perfect, but still I, I knew there was a lot I needed to work with. So, okay. I crossed that hurdle. The second hurdle I had was, well, if I'm going to do this, wouldn't it be more compassionate to be back in America where my family is because, you know, I did realize my parents might think they were losing another child. So wouldn't be more compassionate to find a monastery back there closer. And then I realized the way my family is, I couldn't really individually it, I couldn't be a person in my own and find my own way. If I was too close, it was, it would be too much clinging or do this, or don't do that.
Speaker 2 00:34:21 Or, um, I just got in, you know, intuitively knew that that wouldn't work. So that was crossing hurdle number two. And the third hurdle, it seemed like the most significant one is, can I live with this community of people? Because by that time, you know, you see that the other monks and nuns are human beings, and it was also a hierarchical situation. And it's not always easy to be, you know, one of the underlings that has to just follow suit or do things the way other people want you to do them, even if you had different ideas. And, and so there was enough rubs in personalities and some clashes that I've had by that time to where I thought, Ooh, I don't know if I can, you know, really make this last leap, but then I thought, well, it's in relationships and it's in community that you really learn. You, you know, other people can be a mirror and show you where your weaknesses are and where you need to grow. And I always thought community was a really potent place and it could be also considered a crucible to kind of cook you a bit. So, um, I jumped over that hurdle and that was the that's what kept me going, is knowing that the challenges, the obstacles, the kind of frictions were there for me to learn something from,
Speaker 0 00:35:56 And those things exist in the Buddhist community, in a monastery, not unlike the rest of us experience as well. So I guess I keep coming back to this thread of how we all are really connected here and what we're doing, what we're talking about as a different practice, a different way of going about life, but that we have, we have this bond through our humanity, through our humanness and creativity, as we're talking about here, you mentioned hierarchy. And I'm curious about those challenges because I have watched a video that speaks to life as a Bhikkhuni. And so one question about that is when you reach that level, which what we're talking about that order level of ordination is putting you on par, right, with monks with fully ordained monks. But in the tradition that you, uh, came up in that was not allowed, is that right? Which, which means you had to step outside of that tradition. So what does, can you clarify or elaborate then off my basic understanding of that, to what that really means and what that means to you and to your community and to the community of the CUNYs?
Speaker 2 00:37:09 So, while I was in England, I had decent relationships with monks. I mean, you know, light at a distance, but friends and I didn't really butt heads up against the system. Um, some of my other sisters who were more senior did, and they talked about it as a glass ceiling. So they get to a point where normally after 10 years you'd be able to teach more and have some of the same, um, opportunities that the monks would have, but the nuns didn't have those opportunities. It was very male dominated. And so when they got to that point, um, there was some frustration and like, well, we have more to give. We've been contributing all this time to the, to the running of this place. And now we can't, you know, step into our fullness, so to speak, well, I hadn't gotten to that 10 year Mark.
Speaker 2 00:38:05 I was about eight years. And, and yet some of my senior sisters were leaving because they found this situation very difficult. And within this period, there was quite a bit of term turbulence. Um, around this issue, it became quite heightened. And I noticed how that affected the relationships, even within the nuns community. And so I kind of came to the conclusion that this wasn't very healthy way for anyone, no matter where they were in it, whether it was monks or nuns, I accepted it for a long time, but I felt it more toward the end and how it impacted me. I felt like being part of a family. And then at one point it felt like there wasn't that, that kindness, that respect as going both ways on a human level. I mean, I'm not saying these are bad human beings, but systems do something to human beings and then people can justify actions based on those systems. Whereas normally they wouldn't do that.
Speaker 0 00:39:21 Right. And we're also talking about this as just one more example in what really is history of humanity, long stuff with the genders and with those systems and the hierarchies and the way things work. So I think this is something that a lot of people probably would not realize exists. Um, yet I think none of us who were paying attention, especially in recent years to how these things are rising up and how we're needing to have more of these conversations and truly give attention and respect to, to understanding and appreciating on an equal plane. So we're not surprised maybe to hear that that is, that, that is something that exists yet at the same time, didn't know.
Speaker 2 00:40:07 Yes. In many religions, women don't have the same, um, aren't regarded in the same way. And yet historically, um, if you go back to where it's recorded in the, the scriptures, um, the Buddha was asked, why don't you ordain your mother? She wanted to be ordained as a monastic. And the attendant Ananda said, is it because she can't be enlightened? And the Buddhist says, no, no, it's not that at all. So he totally affirmed women's capacity to be fully awakened, just as much as men. There's no difference there. I think at the time it had to do with the cultural setting and that even today women want being on their own, an unaccompanied are in, at risk. And so at that time, if a woman wasn't with a husband or a son or a father, they were seen as kind of fair game and they could be hurt. So I think the Buddha was trying to protect his mother, but then that got used in a way that it became distorted to say that women were lesser or an excuse. And it's since been shown to be, um, you know, peop people can get stuck in these systems and use them to justify attitudes that are unhealthy and harmful.
Speaker 0 00:41:35 You ultimately would leave that particular monastery. And around 12 years after being initially ordained, I believe you were again, ordained at a higher level, which was to formally become a Bhikkhuni which again, full ordination. And that means what you are practicing outside of your tradition now.
Speaker 2 00:42:01 Well, I'm still I'm ordained as a Teravata Bhikkhuni. And the lineage that I came through in England is also Teravata, but it's a Thai tradition. And in Thailand, they don't allow that higher level of ordination. So I had to actually step away from that kind of disavow. It, it was, it was actually quite a painful separation. And then I went to a monastery with another Bhikkhuni who had invited me. I had met her a few years prior and she said, I was always welcomed. So that was in Southern California in the desert. So I, I was, I went there and stayed there for about three years, but right away, they were planning an ordination ceremony of Bhikkhuni or nation. And there were two others who were going to be part of it. And they said, would you like to join in and be part of this?
Speaker 2 00:42:55 And I was hesitant. It wasn't like I was looking to jump into that per se. I just like, it's like leaving one relationship and jumping into another one. I was wanting to be a bit cautious and careful, but when I looked deeply into it, I thought, well, you know, this is a legitimate form. This is something that a platform that the Buddha offered. And if I'm not in that, then I'm kind of in limbo. So I went ahead and took that on and have been living as a Bacone following the guidelines and the rules. But once I came to Colorado Springs to visit another Bhikkhuni, um, who was living a little bit differently, a little bit more on the margins, I found that it's really hard to live that kind of exact lifestyle outside of the monastic setup, because everything is arranged for you to keep every single one of these rules, which there's quite a few, but when you're on your own, you have to adapt. You keep the spirit of it. I keep the core of it. I keep all the most essential parts, but you know, as far as some of the day to day things, they really impossible to keep, if you're on your own,
Speaker 0 00:44:20 What are some of those things?
Speaker 2 00:44:23 For example, I'm not supposed to store food overnight because we're supposed to be dependent on the lay community, um, interdependent. So in the tradition, traditional times of the Buddha, people would go on alms round with a ball and people in Asia give the rice and the curries and so forth into the bowl every single day does continue. Now. It still continued in, in Asia. Now a days in the West, or even in England, I did go on arms round with my ball, but not every day, most of the time we'd eat inside the monastery and the food was prepared by lay people or by novices. So I didn't have to do that. I didn't technically store it, even though I lived in the monastery, it was stored. It wasn't mine. So now I'm living on my own in this very small little place. And people do bring food, but they don't bring every single day and they don't bring it cooked most of the time.
Speaker 2 00:45:25 And if I were to demand that it would be a hardship for people, it would, you know, it'd be, um, it's not part of the culture to go out. In fact, my, my friend who was living here as a bikini and I went to the farmer's market one time with our bowls and we were standing there and we don't beat a bell or, you know, drama, we don't call attention to ourselves. Although our kind of dress surgeon does that for our, for us. But people just looked at us strange and walked by, or maybe they consider us like homeless people, like get a job, you know? And so people don't understand the tradition. And even though there's a beautiful purpose behind it, that monastics don't separate themselves and become like reckless is that we have an interactive kind of, um, engagement with the wider community. That was the whole purpose. And I still do that. I have interactive engagement, but it's not with people bringing food every day.
Speaker 0 00:46:28 Okay. You know, the way people react to you respond to you because of your hair being cut short because of the maroon colored robes that you're wearing, especially being here where you are, as you described on the margins a little bit, you're not within a monastery community. How, what does that experience for you here in Colorado Springs, where you are walking alone in that sense?
Speaker 2 00:46:57 Well, I've, it's been very challenging. I feel awkward a lot of the time. I have a lot of people who I've gotten to know, and I feel except me and, and I'm friends with, but if I'm walking down the street, I'm very aware that I stand out and it's not something I've ever wanted to do in my life. I was more of that wallflower kind of person wanted to blend in. So it's not that I want to draw attention, but it's a lifestyle that I've chosen. And I don't feel inwardly. I need to be apologetic for that. But people, project, all kinds of things like you. Why are you living this old fashioned way? There was a funny incident. I was with a friend and riding in the car and I saw a few women from another type of religious community wearing old garb. I looked out the window and, um, my friend tells me I had this expression on my face.
Speaker 2 00:48:01 Like I thought they were from outer space. They looked so weird and I'm going, what? And then I realized, that's how people look at me. And we can do that all the time with other people who are different, whatever it is, whether they're, um, you know, from Muslim background, you know, wearing hijab or, or, you know, from we having been covered with tattoos or whatever we make judgements, we pass, um, we project on all kinds of ideas. And I don't think it's incumbent of the person to have to change who they are. Can we not, um, open to another human being, even if they're different from us,
Speaker 0 00:48:46 Those social structures that tend to try to, um, like you're saying project or kind of lash out on someone for being different, I think ultimately is about that person trying to feel safe in their own skin, because it's like someone who speaks or walks or presents himself with just such joy and such confidence in who they are in the world. Unfortunately, that person also kind of gets smacked down. Like, who are you to be so confident because I sure struggle with that. And it's, it's interesting to hear that from your perspective. Um, and that is in contrast to what I said about the preconception that you get placed on some sort of pedestal or, or at a distance, in some sense, because of lack of understanding of what this commitment is that you've made and why you wear those robes.
Speaker 2 00:49:39 Yeah. I think at a distance would speak to both extremes of, you know, making me into the weirdo or making me into the Saint. Both is at a desk.
Speaker 0 00:49:51 Maybe that's the more appropriate word rather than,
Speaker 2 00:49:54 Yeah. Oh, it certainly happens in Asian cultures and more toward the male monks than the women. Um, but something you said there, uh, made me think about how important the sense of belonging is for all of us, whether it's me being part of something else. Like when I go back to be amongst my Bhikkhuni sisters, I feel just like I fit right in. I don't, I don't feel like I stand out. There's a relief about that. There's an understanding that we share and that other people can look at us as a group and understand, but when you're alone, that's that, that sense of belonging isn't there, but isn't that the case, what we all find want to find our tribe and whether it's at, as, as an adolescent or even as, um, an older person, we, or even politically, you know, we want to feel that we belong to something that, um, gives us a sense of security or rightness.
Speaker 0 00:50:58 I think we want the allowance to be ourselves, whoever that is. And an awful lot of us don't really know who that is because we have spent so much of our lives trying to fit into these other accepted lanes. So I think we want to be heard. I think we want to be in a sense left alone, but only in the sense of meaning we're allowed to be who we are and to feel okay about who that is not be left alone as an isolated, in fact, that's the opposite of what we want. Right. Belonging,
Speaker 2 00:51:27 Right? Yeah. But that discovery of how we, who we really are. That's, you know, that's something that we're told from a very young age. This is who you are, this is your name. This is your religion. This is your, um, ethnicity. Um, this is who you are. And then, you know, as we alluded to earlier in adolescents, we usually struggle with that, that mold we were cast in at first. And we try to find a new niche, a new place, um, rebel against the old, but I don't think it ends there. I think there's a continual searching. And with this path being an inward path, I asked that question frequently, who am I? You know, is it just the external, is it even the thoughts or the emotions or the views I have? And when I go beneath all those layers and I allow myself to go beneath those layers, when I look at another person that's where there's the common humanity,
Speaker 0 00:52:34 Right? I'm, I'm curious if at this point again, around 20 years, uh, of your practice of this ordained committed life, and I'm curious what this committed practice hat is about to you has become about to you, why it's important to you now, which I recognize might, will be a different answer than it would have been 20 years ago or even a year ago, or the 20 years from now.
Speaker 2 00:53:05 Yes, absolutely different than it has been before. I mean, there's some similarity in that I want to be free from suffering. I want to understand deeply the causes of, of what causes that stress and suffering in my own life. But it's also more about the interconnection I have with other beings of not just humans, but all of life and how I could be living a life that's integrated. So that what benefits me, benefits others, um, seeing that I'm not separate. And so I don't feel that the only part of this life that's important is say meditation, but also actions in day to day life bringing all these things together. My speech, my actions, my thoughts, my, you know, the inner contemplation and the action and engaging in my situation, my world, my society, in a way that's beneficial. And so I'm much more moved. I moved more into this engaged arena than I was say when I was living in a monastery. And I feel that there was a place for the contemplative life, um, the reflective kind of life that I can offer people, um, invite them in, let them experience what a life of simplicity would be like. But there's also so much I can learn from others by not being separate in, in, you know, like shielded off. So I think it's a constantly evolving thing. It's, it's definitely something that, like you said, the answer is different than it, it would have been before, and it's probably gonna be changed again.
Speaker 0 00:55:10 Yeah. You know, you mentioned contemplation and I wonder if that is something that you use in reflecting on your own life and experience and how that factors into this sense of struggle and how to move through our past struggle as a being, and specifically, I guess what I'm looking at here is have you contemplated reflected upon again, if I use the word transom between the lay person's life that you live for your first 30 or so years, and now this life, this path, this journey that you're on for all these things that we've been talking about, or is that simply an in certainly you don't need to try to force an answer if there's not one, if it's simply is not a matter of reflecting on those specifics, rather working with the present, working with your engagement in the community today and wherever this is going.
Speaker 2 00:56:08 Yeah. I think it's a more, a immediate discovery and exploration then a Pat answer. Um, I would say the journey, the search that thread has been there throughout, even though the external appearance has changed over time, that remains the same in a sense and whatever shape it will take in the future. I would imagine that that, that same, um, quest for understanding for, um, a kind of deeper knowing is going to be the thing that drives me. I don't know if that's what you're getting at.
Speaker 0 00:56:57 Absolutely know that that answers, because it occurred to me in the midst of my question that I might be asking you to go backward on something that frankly is not part of the practice. And in fact might be opposite to the current practice, which is that what you ultimately answered. And that is with more of the immediate and where that's going. I'm curious in a complete, maybe separation from some of this other line of thinking and discussing what brings you joy in your life? What brings you laughter what, what stirs that kind of lightheartedness?
Speaker 2 00:57:33 Well, I like being playful and so I, I'm not as active in terms of the kind of sports I used to do, but just being around children or animals, I like being in the garden. I like nature.
Speaker 0 00:57:51 We've talked about, actually, I remember it coming up once incidentally and we didn't get a chance to go into it. But kayaking was something that you were interested in was that sea kayaking was that Rapids like here in the mountains
Speaker 2 00:58:02 I was in, when I lived in Montana, um, they weren't like really heavy, uh, hard whitewater rafting, but it was, it was going down rivers. And I enjoyed that so much because, um, especially in a kayak, you're right down there in the water, right at that level. And I'd see deer and moose and fish swimming underneath and Osprey coming down to catch the fish. And so you had to be, you know, very alert to be able to navigate, um, so that you didn't get caught in a sweeper or something like that. And so it's, you're very have to be very aware of your surroundings and in a sense of being alive. That was, that was awesome.
Speaker 0 00:58:53 Do you find that now that sense of presence and awareness of all that is around you and I, as you were saying that about kayaking too, and I'm visualizing this storage you're talking about and cold water splashing up on you and you feel that immediately, what brings you that sensation in your practice in life now?
Speaker 2 00:59:12 Well, I think going on hikes, um, I like going up PI going on ridges. I have a bit of a, well, maybe not a dairy of old, but I, I do like being a bit on the edge. Um, physically I try things. And that gives me a sense of a liveliness. Um,
Speaker 0 00:59:35 Is there an example you can share of something that, that seems like pushing it? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:59:40 Climbing up on rocks that are a little bit challenging where I don't use ropes or anything, but you know, I'm also trying to be somewhat cautious because I don't want to fall and break something and then other people have to see how I'm going to get my medical treatment. It's the balance. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think also being at peaceful and calm in nature can be very fulfilling. It doesn't have to be, you know, that, that super adrenaline rush, you know, I think I'm beyond that age.
Speaker 0 01:00:22 Okay. Um, I'm going to go ahead and bring us to, what is our final question that I like to ask each guest, and that is how do you live or try to live humanness and creativity in your life. And while we've been speaking to that in some different ways and different stories, uh, throughout your, your life story, this is a chance to sort of summarize or even elaborate on something that I didn't ask you about. Which tree Tivity, I think is something that's more in your life than what we, we didn't necessarily wind to that, uh, part of the stream yet. So humanness and creativity in your life.
Speaker 2 01:01:02 Okay. Well, one of the things as a child, I thought I'd be when I grew up, I've thought I'd be like an artist. Well, I was never an artist in terms of painting or drawing or things like that, but the creativity has come out in different ways. And right now I'm really interested in permaculture and how to bring that into the right livelihood aspect of the Buddha's path. Okay. So I have a garden and I'm constantly trying to think of new ways or learn new ways. I'm not inventing them to do things that are working along with nature. So how to plant, how to organize, how to arrange, um, I love natural buildings. I could just create ad ad infinitum buildings in my mind about how, how it would work to, you know, be ecologically, um, sustainable, or maybe regenerative, how to work with, with nature so that we're not dominating it. And so we're, um, finding the, the great beauty and benefit that is there.
Speaker 0 01:02:16 Well, thank you very much, sister Madeira for your time, for your insights and for that accessibility.
Speaker 2 01:02:24 Oh, you're very welcome. I'm I'm also grateful for, for you inviting me here. It's not something that I jump into easily being kind of the behind the scenes shadowy person, but, um, I'm also grateful of the community of which I'm a part of and all the people who have supported me and made me feel that sense of belonging and, and welcome, and the friendships I have here very much a part of me.
Speaker 0 01:02:52 Well, wonderful. All right. That was my conversation with sister iodine, Madeira, a Bakunin of tremendous humility and insights. If you have comments on this conversation or the humanity podcast series, you can email
[email protected] or reach me by Instagram, DM at Humana to I invite you to subscribe and follow the humanity podcast, to leave helpful reviews on Apple podcasts and to share this podcast series about humanists and creativity with those close to you, we can cultivate a more thoughtful kind and creative world together. You can follow, listen and download the humanity podcast on our site, humanity.co and wherever you listen to podcast. Now, the question I asked you, how are you living humanist and creativity in your life? I'm going to podcast creator and host Adam Williams. Thank you for listening.
