Speaker 1 00:00:04 Welcome to humanity. I'm Adam Williams, creator and host of this podcast series about humanness and creativity. Today, I'm talking with chef brother luck brothers, the owner of two restaurants in Colorado Springs for by brother luck and lucky don't blink. And he's got a new project underway to even in the heat of the economic and health crises. We're all living right now. The lucky lounge brother has also been a crowd favorite in the celebrity chef universe of the food network, where he was a finalist on chopped and where he beat chef Bobby Flay on the network show beat Bobby Flay. You also might recognize him and his work from Bravo's top chef seasons, 15 and 16. We talk about some of that top chef experience in this conversation and his being named a James Beard awards semifinalist for best chef this year. But if you know this podcast at all, then you know that those highlights are not where we're going to live in this conversation.
Speaker 1 00:00:55 There's a lot of deeply human stuff in brother's story, and he lets himself be vulnerable and honest and real and sharing it. And that's why I reached out to him. We get into some traumatic and life altering stuff from brothers, early years, lessons he learned from his dad and then the road he took when his dad died, way too soon, we get into mental health and the dark emotional space brother was in a couple of years ago, when something call it divine intervention or whatever it needs to be called, shook him out of it. We talk about facing fear and making bold decisions. Even when the chips are down, like now when he's taken on and building out the lucky lounge, we talk about brothers hashtag no Lux given and how and why he uses social media and public platforms for good for community, for inspiration. And we talk about more, of course, always more. Here's my conversation with the talented and real chef brother-in-law
Speaker 0 00:01:58 Brother
Speaker 2 00:01:58 Humanity. I'm so glad to have you here with me. Absolutely absolutely honored. You know, you and I have not met in person yet, but you know, in our messages prior to this, I kept forgetting to tell you that you actually have met my son and wife, my then five year old son, you were giving a talk at welcome fellow in Colorado Springs. He wanted to see you. So my wife took him and then she took him up and met you so he could meet you afterward. And I don't know that you recall that. I'm sure you meet a lot of people, but I just wanted to say thank you myself for that now that we can can, one-on-one be able to say that. And just to, you know, let me know, maybe you already know that stuff really stands out in a kid's memory. So I guarantee he's going to be the first one, listening to this episode of the podcast, as you know, I'm, I'm honored, you know, I, I, I'm always blown away by the reach and, and I'm very thankful for the platform that I've been given, just because, you know, we take it seriously, you know, it's, it's a responsibility and, you know, make sure you're conveying the right messages,
Speaker 3 00:03:00 Hopefully inspiring people.
Speaker 4 00:03:01 I appreciate it. Now I want to talk about when you were a kid. I mean, obviously you are a well known chef now you've been on what I would think are three of maybe the biggest chef competition shows that are out on TV. And we might talk about some of that in a bit, but first you were born in San Francisco. You spent your early years there. We're talking eighties, I think, into the nineties, maybe. Uh, and I'm curious what the scene was around you then it was a different San Francisco. What was your childhood like? What do you remember being around you? The environment, the people, the influences.
Speaker 3 00:03:36 Yeah. Um, you know, San Francisco for me growing up in the, in the, in the extremely early eighties was, was a lot more, um, free. Um, there was a lot more, uh, uh, liberal mindset. It was, it was, you know, I dunno it was happiness for me. It was just kind of grown up in a, in an area where you don't know anything's wrong. So everything's just new and everything's exciting. And, you know, walking through Embarcadero Bart station or, you know, taking a trolley or being down at the pier or even, you know, being at the civic center and seeing the homeless camps back then, I mean, it was just, none of it felt like it was poverty or wrong, or it was just, it's just what it was. You know, my parents love San Francisco and I love growing up in the Bay area. It's, it's always going to be home, but, uh, yeah, it was just, it was happiness.
Speaker 4 00:04:36 And speaking of your parents, you've talked a little bit before about them being performers, right. They were getting out in the world. Can you tell me more about that? I'm curious. I think China was even part of that. I mean, it sounds like a really interesting history that they had.
Speaker 3 00:04:53 Yeah. Yeah. My parents were both dancers, so, you know, they traveled around the world, uh, performance shows and, um, you know, the big part of their time was spent in Asia. So it's one of the, one of the reasons why, uh, when my mother got pregnant with me, they came back to San Francisco. They were kind of on that path and that flight way. And, you know, it's one of the reasons why we grew up in a, in a dominant, uh, type of, of Asian culture. I mean, you know, I went to a Japanese preschool and, you know, we lived right off of, of, of Gary street. So it was like, it was just such a big part of, of, of growing up because they were still so immersed in that culture.
Speaker 4 00:05:32 I'm curious about how that might've influenced you with them having, you know, it takes courage to be out there in the world to dance, to be creative, to perform in front of people. Those are some things you do in your own ways now, as far as being in front of people and, uh, having an influence in that way, how did that maybe get into you? Did you hear the stories growing up where they would talk about these great things so that you knew there was a bigger world out there? You knew that there were things that you are capable of or, you know, how, how did that come into your awareness and maybe influence what you do with your life?
Speaker 3 00:06:09 You know, I, I don't think it's, it's, uh, I needed, there was this big world that existed. Um, you know, there was a curiosity, but I never was able to really understand it or comprehend it as a child. Um, for me though, I'm a father always wanted to be one, wanted me always to be on television. And, uh, he used to put me through a modeling classes. You split me through acting, uh, classes and, you know, I would do these photo shoots. And it was a big part of my childhood for, for, uh, you know, growing up in San Francisco was he had his dream of me being on television, which, which, you know, really fed into me being a Leo and being the center of attention and always, you know, trying to take that in a, in a crowd. And, um, ironically, you know, you fast forward 30 years later and, um, I ended up on TV and, you know, kind of fulfilling everything that he wanted for me, uh, just in my own way.
Speaker 3 00:07:04 So it's, uh, I always think about that. It's pretty funny. Um, you know, but as far as like traveling the world, I think eventually that's what led me to, uh, Japan. Cause I wanted to understand what was there a connection and, and why they love Japan so much. Um, so when I had the opportunity to go study in Japan, uh, that was a big part of my essay that I wrote, um, to secure my, my scholarship to go. And, and it was, it was unique to kind of walk in their footsteps, um, in my own way. Um, and understand what, you know, I looked at photos when I was a kid or I heard the stories when I was a kid about their time in Japan and then getting to experience it for myself as a chef.
Speaker 4 00:07:46 Your dad was Creel though, right? So he came from what we're saying, Louisiana.
Speaker 3 00:07:52 Yeah. So my mom, my, my mother's from Louisiana, um, she's Katie's and my father's Creo. Uh, so his mother is from Louisiana, but my father was raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And, um, my mother was raised down and, um, uh, in Slido, which is just outside of new Orleans, uh, but roots are all there. You know, my grandma, my grandmother's family on my dad's side are all from Appaloosa. So, you know, occasionally Creole is a big part of our heritage. Um, you know, some nights I've personally taken responsibility to learn more about and understand Creole people in this country and, and you know, our history and what we've done and, uh, what we were known for. And, you know, really just trying to find that identity.
Speaker 4 00:08:32 What are Creole people known for?
Speaker 3 00:08:36 We're the first people of color in this country to have an education and also own property. So, you know, when you look before the Louisiana purchase, that was a big, that was a big deal. You know, they had light skin, but then they had blue eyes and, you know, they had blonde hair, but they were considered black or mulatto. Um, you know, so it was a mixture of Indian and French and African and Spanish. Um, so you had all of these, these races that were considered to be Creole people, and they spoke a variety of languages. They spoke Spanish, they spoke French, they spoke English. And, you know, that was a big part, was they were able to get access, um, to property rights because they weren't really classified. You know, when you look past the Louisiana purchase and rights were starting to be taken away, uh, they became activists for, um, the black community just because they were able to, to, to help, they were able to advocate. They were able to, um, you know, translate and give information. So it's a, it's a unique, it's a unique culture. That's very indigenous to Louisiana because of all the trade that happened in those ports.
Speaker 4 00:09:46 You know, I asked about the Creole a part of your history, because I think it was on top chef where you actually had talked about in one of those vignettes about how your dad had taught you a recipe for dirty rice. When it was a school assignment, you were fifth grade, 10 years old, he teaches you this. And that's only a few,
Speaker 3 00:10:04 Two weeks before he died. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:10:07 And I'm curious what you remember about that experience. If, if that one in particular stands out because of how that ties to food and your cooking, and one of the, I suppose, last lessons you got to have with
Speaker 3 00:10:23 Experiences and all that. Yeah. You know, I think as a chef food is memory and I'm constantly chasing the ghost of my past to understand myself. And I do that through food. You know, I'm, I'm able to, to look at a family recipe, whether it's mine or someone else's and, and really channel what the thought process was, you know, how they wrote the recipe, what kind of ingredients they were using, what their lifestyle was like, um, where in the world were they, those things always clicked for me when I, when I cook, you know, for me personally, that was a, that, that was a moment that stood out just because you know, of the traumatic experience I was about to experience. Um, we were, we were, I was in fifth grade, we were, um, asked to come home, uh, collect a family heirloom recipe and bring it in.
Speaker 3 00:11:12 And we were going to do a class, a cookbook. And I went home and asked my father. I said, you know, I need a recipe for school. And he gave me dirty rice. And I remember being so embarrassed because it had like chicken liver and gizzards and peppers and onions, and it just didn't sound appealing. And I remember being embarrassed and ashamed of that recipe because everyone else was bringing in like snicker doodles and, you know, these, you know, cheesecakes, and there was all kinds of like fun holiday, dessert type breastfeeds. And I'm bringing in, I'm bringing in, uh, dirty rice. And, uh, you know, I turned in, I turned in the recipe, uh, we made the cookbook and then he passed shortly after that few weeks after that. And, uh, years later, you know, I still have this cookbook years later, um, I came across it.
Speaker 3 00:12:10 I was probably, I was probably 20, 21 years old. And, um, I made it at work or maybe I made it at work. Um, and I thought it was, I thought it was really special to kind of, you know, cook through that because I realized I didn't have any of the recipes from him. Uh, and my father was a phenomenal cook. He was a, he was a great Baker. You know, he loved to be in the kitchen. I have lots of memories of him, you know, dancing around on Thanksgiving day, making collard greens and macaroni and cheese and cookies and all that stuff. But to have like his, his, his, his thoughts, um, written on paper, uh, it's almost a form of immortality. And that's something that, that really sticks with me is like the importance of getting your thoughts down and sharing them with your people, because, you know, tomorrow's not promised,
Speaker 4 00:13:01 Right. You know, I mentioned my one son, I'm a dad to two sons, and I think about, you know, teach, teach, teach it's, it's, it's what I focus on almost relentlessly, like maybe even to a fault. And in part of it is because there's this thing in the back of my mind that I might not be around long enough to teach them everything I have to teach them. And I want to make sure that if something happens that I leave them with something in you, as you just explained, we're avoid on the other side of that kind of experience. And so it's those lessons that, you know, I am hearing from you that I find special. And I want to ask you about a specific one, because you also have shared about a time when you were nine. So your dad was still with you, you got in trouble in school, you were living in LA at the time you got caught by a teacher with a knife, 1992, some significant things going on in LA, especially at the time I do all that just to set up, if you don't mind taking away what that story is, why did you have the knife?
Speaker 4 00:14:04 What was going on? And most importantly, to me to hear how your dad handled that, that teaching opportunity for you.
Speaker 3 00:14:12 Yeah, that was, um, that was a powerful moment that I didn't really understand until recently with, with everything that's going on in today's society, as far as, you know, black lives matter protesting and, um, you know, the writing that, that was happening at the, at the time. And, you know, to, to really go back in time and look at 1992 and, and the Rodney King riots, the LA riots that were happening at that time, you know, that's all that we saw on the news. That's all that, that's all media was pushing on us, and we didn't have Facebook back there. We didn't have, you know, the, the communications that we do today. So for me to, to understand that, you know, the world was on fire, you know, there, there was danger at nine years old. That was, that was something that was pretty powerful.
Speaker 3 00:14:59 And I think it just goes to show you like how far media has reached the children, how much children take care of them? You know, for me, it was a concern, you know, I carried a knife to school and I got caught with that knife. And when the teacher asked me, um, you know, why did I have this knife and said, it's because, you know, there's riots going on and I want to be able to protect myself. So, you know, my father upon here and this one, that's a note, you know, when he heard this story, he did one of the most powerful things that I think a father could do was, was use it as opportunity to teach a lesson. And he took me down to, you know, Watson, South central, and we cleaned up the riots, you know, everything had just ended. And, you know, there were still fires smoldering.
Speaker 3 00:15:44 And, you know, we, we swept up businesses that had been burned down. We handed out waters, uh, to people on the streets. We serve food. You know, I remember getting interviewed by the local news with a, with a mask on, um, you know, as a young boy cleaning up the streets in L a after it, and it just kind of reinforced like, you know, when we, when we ride it, doesn't, we're hurting our own communities. And that, that was something that was very powerful for me, just because, you know, he wanted me to understand, even though, you know, your mother's white and your father's black, you know, you have a responsibility to be aware of your heritage and the people who came before you and know the power of, of helping your community and being an advocate for your community.
Speaker 4 00:16:32 Right. It's amazing. And like you said, you know, with the things going on recently, uh, that, that really came back to you and, and landed in a different kind of way. And yeah, I brought that up because, you know, I'm hoping that there are those times in 10, 20, 30, 50 years, that I will have taught things today that my sons will, will hold and make, make yourself later. You know? So during your first season on top chef, you talked about getting into trouble as a teenager too. So what we just went through there that wasn't the first time that you encountered some things, but that you were surrounded by gangs and violence and those things. And I'm curious, were you involved in that or just surrounded by it, or what was the influence impact of that on your life? Did you see a path happening and how did you segue from that to the one that you're still writing that?
Speaker 3 00:17:30 Yeah, you know, my father passed away. It was sad. It was quick, and there was nothing put in place for us to, to be taken care of afterwards, as far as life insurance, you know, so bills are still do people still want their money? Um, rent still comes around on the first and, you know, my mother, uh, who was a widow at the time and was going through, you know, a tough, a tough patch, had this responsibility to raise two young men. You know, it's my brother and myself, and we're three years apart. I'm the older brother. And, uh, you know, I was 10, he was seven and she didn't, she didn't really understand. I mean, she was thinking my mother was five 30 at the time, maybe 20 snow shoes, 20, 29, 29 years old. And, um, I look at that, that timeframe and, you know, I understand it now, but at the, at the time I didn't understand any of it.
Speaker 3 00:18:24 It was just, it was pain. It was, it was loss and it was hurt. And, uh, you know, you have to live within your means. So, you know, we lost the place we lived, we moved to a more urban environment and, you know, you move into certain neighborhoods and, you know, you, you become a part of that neighborhood. And that neighborhood was not the most, uh, safest neighborhood. You know, there was, there was a lot of individuals in the neighborhood that, you know, did what they had to do to survive and do what they did for pleasure. And, you know, you become a product of that environment. So for me, you know, hanging around the pants, hanging around the, the drug dealers hanging around the, you know, the gang members, like that was just, those were the people in my society. And, you know, you start to watch and learn and, and absorb and, you know, eventually you and that a part of stings.
Speaker 3 00:19:22 And for many years after that, you know, that was, that was my world. That's what I was around. And that's all I knew. And it was because I didn't have any supervision. You know, my mother was, was trying to figure out, you know, what she was going to do and how she was going to make things happen. And, uh, you know, I was, I was lost in that. Uh, you know, I knew that I was just suppressing pain and it was through, you know, whatever I could do, whatever I could do to, to numb that. I mean, that was, that was a big part of, it was, uh, was, was really just, you know, getting into whatever I could and not, and not have that stress, not have that, that feeling of, you know, loss or pain or neglect. It was, it was just the, I don't know, the aggression, the drugs, the violence, all, all of that was extremely exciting and fun on a day to day basis.
Speaker 3 00:20:18 But it wasn't until I got into, um, program, when I moved to Phoenix, when I was 16, uh, that, that took me out of that mindset. You know, it was, it was really getting into culinary arts and that changed. It changed everything for me, living when you were in the neighborhood where you surrounded by those things, where are you in Los Angeles at that time? No, it was back in the Bay area. So my father were father moved us back up to the Bay area before he passed away. We were living in Vallejo, California. And then, uh, you
Speaker 2 00:20:48 Know, he has certainly passed, uh, I think at that point we were living in Concord and then we ended up moving out to, uh, Alameda and Oakland. And then eventually we ended up in Pittsburgh, uh, but really all over the Bay area. I mean, you know, the Bay area is, uh, is, is, is a big world over there. It's, it's its own world. It's its own mindset with multiple neighborhoods. And, you know, we were constantly getting kicked out of wherever we were at because we just didn't know how to behave, you know, and, and, and my house was the spot. It was always a spot. It was a cake, a spot. So it was always where all the home hung out. Uh, no matter where we're at, that was a kick ass spot. So, you know, we got kicked out a lot of places and moved all around the Bay area until eventually I'm a good friend of the family. He came to visit. He was living up in Arizona. He came to visit and saw just how, how crazy we were living. And, uh, he put me and my brother on a plane and moved us to Arizona. And, uh, my mother eventually followed suit. But, uh, yeah, that was, uh, I feel like the reason that man was on this earth was, was to get me out of California. And to give me a chance,
Speaker 4 00:21:56 Do you have contact with any of your friends, the people that you were around during those years that now see where you've gone? What you're doing
Speaker 2 00:22:06 Social media is allowed that allow that connection. But, you know, when I was, when I was probably 19 years old, I cut off connection to pretty much everyone. You know, I, I, I became, uh, submerged in my craft, uh, which was cooking my job, going to school. Uh, my relationship at the time, it was not my wife. Um, you know, I, I built a whole new world and, and I, I always think that when people say you're a product of your environment, you're, you're, you're an example of the people you keep. Um, that's extremely true. You know, once I cut those people out of my life, I was able to, to change my trajectory. And, uh, it's interesting now to see these people through social media, um, rebuild relationships, um, and reminisce, but at the same time, I'm no longer that person that I was, you know, I've, I've, I've gone a completely different direction and, you know, some still live that same mindset and still on those same worlds and some have gone on to do great things. You know, I'm just, I'm very fortunate to be one of those that, uh, you know, got out.
Speaker 4 00:23:21 So when you were a teenager, you did make that transition. You're talking about, I think vocational school, you went to culinary school, you were working jobs with it. And I'm wondering about the fire or the passion that was in that. What, what do you think had you so hooked that you were so focused that you would just focus so much on that graph?
Speaker 2 00:23:41 Yeah. Um, you know, for me, I've thought about that a lot. You know, a lot of people always ask me like, how'd you find cooking so young because I've been in kitchen since I was about 14. I don't think it was, I, I had this like passion to, to be a chef. I didn't have this passion to end up on television, or, you know, for me, it was, um, I had really good role models at 16. I had, I had chefs that gave me really good, really good advice. And, and we're, we're, we're positive male role models. And I hadn't had a positive, no role model for the last, you know, six, seven years. You know, since my father passed, everything was always some negative. Everything was so violent. So to have, you know, these chefs holding me accountable, giving me discipline, setting expectations, uh, giving me direction, um, complimenting me, you know, these, these were things that I wasn't used to. So I became very thirsty for that attention. And I performed to get more of that attention. And, and I realized throughout my entire career, I I've, I've literally chased that attention that, you know, that recognition, um, that positive reinforcement, which has made me great at what I do. And it has allowed me to climb, um, the ladder as fast as I have, but it was because I was looking for, you know, that Pat on the back, that good job that I didn't have as a adolescent.
Speaker 4 00:25:11 Well, and now you have a social media following with the things that you do and the influence that now you ripple out to other people. I mean, tens of thousands of followers, you share these Instagram stories and things like where you got suspended as a kid, and your dad took you down there to clean it up, uh, things like that. And in this country right now, I'd say we're pretty short on proper leadership, but some of those things are things that you're speaking out on. And, you know, I, I see you as a leader, there's leadership in the things that you're doing, not only in running a kitchen, but beyond, so I'm wondering about your perspective of leadership and how you view yourself and your, I dunno, responsibility, or at least what you want to be, or how to serve as a leader. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:25:57 Yeah. Um, you know, I, I enjoy the social media platform that I've been given because it allows me to speak. Um, but, um, I'm very, uh, cognizant of, of ensuring that my message is honest. It's true, it's real, and it's not forced. And that's something that I'm constantly, um, you know what I mean, there'll be gaps where I don't go on social media just because I don't feel like what I have to say right now is either right, or, um, is, is, is in the right mindset. And, and I don't want the message to come across as, as wrong or forced, you know, but I think it's, it's about being real. I love that people follow me for that reason. You know, I'm not trying to be an Instagram star or, you know, a celebrity on TV, or I could care less about all of that.
Speaker 2 00:26:49 You know, for me, it's about hopefully inspiring someone to make a change in their life. And, you know, I don't care if it's, it's one of our soldiers, or if it's, you know, a, a mother who's dealing with domestic violence or it's an adolescent who's troubled and, and, and in the system, or if it's, you know, someone that's dealing with depression and suicidal thoughts, I think you have this opportunity to share your story. And your story is powerful. You know, your story's not about you and isn't as hard as it is to relive your story, your stories, and meant for someone else to hear. So you have to go through that pain each time to connect to someone.
Speaker 4 00:27:33 I love that part of what I say when I describe Humana too. And the purpose of these conversations is that for listeners like myself right now, listening to you, what we do is we hear ourselves in your store, right? So like you just said, you share these things and it's the people and how they receive them and how they touch them
Speaker 2 00:27:51 And benefit them, inspire whatever it is. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's huge, you know, that's what it's about. So, you know, I, I speak and, and interact with individuals that, you know, relate to my story because I feel like that's where I can, I can make the biggest impact or the biggest difference is because it's real, you know, I'm not, I'm not preaching to you because I don't understand this. So I read this in a book I'm preaching to you. Cause I lived it. And people, people connect to that.
Speaker 4 00:28:20 Like, I want to talk about what you're doing during this time of the pandemic, talking about being honest, being real there, struggled, there's fear, there's emotions. But what, I also see a lot from you in what you're sharing through Instagram, and these things is optimism, positivity. You keep on going and, you know, that's uplifting, it's encouraging. And you know, it's been an unthinkable unexpected experience for you. You mentioned your wife, Tina she's part of the business, right? I mean, how, how have you managed to get that courage up when you're feeling what you're feeling on the difficult side, but share these positive messages with other people to keep the right things going?
Speaker 2 00:29:06 You know, I share it because I'm scared every day. And, and I know I'm not alone in that feeling, you know, I'm, I'm, I sit in a lot of, of discussions and conversations with other, uh, business owners that are going through it just like I'm going through it. You know, I'm, I'm fighting like hell to keep my businesses alive and, you know, be responsible and, and protect the safety of our team members and our guests and, and myself, you know, that's one of the hardest parts is like, you know, you have to take care of yourself too, if you're not around, how do you people, um, but you know, I think sharing my fears and insecurities and, you know, my, my aspirations and hopes, um, and positive messages gives people something to relate to and make them feel like they're not in it by themselves because they're not, it's, we're all dealing with this.
Speaker 2 00:30:02 And we don't know what tomorrow looks like. We don't know if there's another shutdown. I'm very fortunate to have survived that first part of this. Um, but what happens on part two, what happens on part three? Um, this is, this is such a tough time. And, you know, I, I'm responsible for 50 people, you know, 50 families that depend on me to make good decisions that depend on me to, to be responsible. And, um, you know, that first COVID shut down really taught me how vulnerable we were. So I've literally transitioned my entire business mindset to not working in that same style of, of, of operation a business plan doesn't work. So, you know, you've even managed to expand it. Look, you don't blame. You're building out next door for a lounge. Yeah. I mean, that's the scariest thing I'm doing right now. I mean, you know, it's something that I I've literally been waiting on for seven years.
Speaker 2 00:31:04 Um, I started my business in that space, uh, seven years ago, uh, subletting that kitchen. So, you know, I've always been a part of that venue. Um, and that's having that was there, uh, decided that, you know, they were done, they can, it can survive this COVID portion. So, you know, they let the space go. And that's one of those moments where, you know, there's never a good time to expand. There's never a good time to build something, but opportunity is opportunity. And, you know, you get that door in front of you, you know, you're going to stare at the door, are you going to kick it down and start running? And that's just kind of where my mindset is right now is it's like, it's risky. You know, we're going to add on another 1500 square feet. You know, there's more expenses that incur because of that, but let's look beyond this next six months, let's look at the next three years, what does that market look like?
Speaker 2 00:31:59 If we can survive this timeframe and absorb this and really build something cool, how does it pay off in the long run? You know, and I've always just kind of looked at the stages of my decisions. You know, I'm very, I calculate a lot and I do my homework and my research. Um, and I don't just jump into projects. Um, just on emotion. I jump into them with thought and intention. And, uh, you know, when you look at something like top chef, top chef was a horrible time to go film that show, you know, we were open, we were hoping for, I mean, we spent the last four years trying to get to that point of opening, a restaurant of that magnitude and that size. And then you want me to leave for eight weeks and have no communication with my business and know if it's even surviving like that. That was a tough time, but we knew the payoff on the back end was, was huge. So I kind of look at the expansion of Bucky dumpling like that right now is this is going to create something that's going to be amazing for us in the long run and long term.
Speaker 4 00:33:03 You're talking about being bold in the face of what could be tremendous fear that would paralyze other people. And that's a, yeah, I'd wondered about that eight weeks too. When I watched season 15, when you went on top chef, you know, I think you're introducing yourself or something and it's like, just opened my business. I'm like, Oh my God, what, how, you know? And I love hearing this story a little bit of, of the spirit behind this and the attitude and the willingness to do it thoughtfully, but to do it.
Speaker 2 00:33:32 Yeah. And that's where a big part of that no Lux given comes from is, you know, it's, it's a, it's a conversation I was having with, uh, with one of my PR people at the time. And, and that conversation, uh, the, the term, no Lux given came up and, uh, you know, we really attributed that. So like, uh, perseverance, courage, and determination. It's not being scared of me and paralyzed, like fear is always going to be there. So you have to learn how to manage the fear. You have to learn how to embrace the fear and, and, and utilize the fear. Because if you know, fear is not going away, then you have to harness it. You know, you have not, you have no option, but to confront it and, and you know, you, you don't have the option of flight. You've got to just start to fight and take it on.
Speaker 4 00:34:21 I want to talk about no lugs given a little bit more, that also pertains to mental health wellbeing in that vein, right? Isn't that part of it's a hashtag no lugs given. And again, so I brought up top chef and there is a correlation here between some mental health experiences on your part. And what happened there for you with that show, and you've even written about it. You published an op ed article called why I choose to be vulnerable. It was on the James Beard foundation's website. And I'll put that in show notes, so that on the website for humanity, so that people can find that easily and go read that for themselves. But after you were eliminated from top chef 15, you, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna read a quote from what you wrote. If you don't mind, you said, I knew that I was dealing with a serious episode of depression. I struggled with thoughts of suicide, because it felt like the only way someone would finally pay attention, I was alone scared and cornered by my personal demons. And then, I mean, I'm getting goosebumps even thinking about this as well. Anthony Bordain killed himself in his hotel room where he was staying on location to shoot, and, and that had an impact on you. Um, I'll just get out of the way and let you take it from there. And what all of that means, um, to the bigger picture here and no Luke's given.
Speaker 2 00:35:46 Yeah. Um, I mean, depression's a real thing. And, and, and many people walk around on the day to day smiling and, you know, man, the center of attention and, and, but on the inside, I mean, they're, they're battling and they're fighting this unwinnable war feels like, and, uh, a lot of it comes back down to your past, you know, have you dealt with the stuff that, that puts you in that, in that mindset, have you, have you confronted it or have you suppressed it? Um, and, and many of us, you know, you ignore a problem. You think it goes away and you can only ignore things for so long before eventually that door just burst at the seams and crashing down on you. And I think when, when I look at that time of going back to film top chef Kentucky, uh, the mindset that I was in, as far as, you know, what I was dealing with personally, what I was dealing with professionally, um, the insecurities that I was having, the, the, I was really just starting to get into, um, you know, therapy sessions and uncovering a lot of that.
Speaker 2 00:37:02 And I felt like the experience that I went through on top chef Kentucky really just, um, triggered a lot of, of PTSD. And, you know, I've, I've, uh, I think we only think about PTSD when it comes to our soldiers and our veterans who have seen combat, but, you know, we have youth every day that deal with traumatic experiences, whether it's watching someone gun down in front of you, or it's watching a loved one, uh, be abused or it's being abused yourself, or, you know, extreme, extreme, uh, scenarios of violence. Like this is things that happen. These are things that happen every day and in our neighborhoods, in our communities and here in Colorado Springs and these, these, these kids are getting PTSD from it. So for me, um, that experience in Kentucky really just triggered a lot of that rejection and neglect. And the spiral that it put me in was uncontrollable.
Speaker 2 00:38:05 And I, and I think being locked in a hotel room by myself, not really having any communication with the outside world and then being asked to perform, uh, without really understanding where my mental state was, uh, was harsh. And I think sitting in that room by myself, you know, that loneliness is something that is easy to, to, to follow that feeling is, is easy to just start chasing. And, you know, you add alcohol to that mix, you know, that you can make some mistakes that are, are going to be everlasting. And, you know, I was in a extremely dark place that night. And that next morning, when I, when I woke up, I saw the news of Anthony Bourdain passing away in his own hotel room while filming the show. And that was, I don't know if that was divine intervention or what that was, but that was a moment where I knew I needed to make some changes in my life. And that's why I decided to, uh, leave the show at that time and, you know, not pursue the rest of that season. Like they asked me to,
Speaker 4 00:39:17 You've now met a lot of well known chefs. And I'm wondering if you have met, if you ever did meet Anthony Bordain and, or were influenced by his books or his work on TV or anything like that.
Speaker 2 00:39:32 Yeah. I never had that opportunity to meet Anthony Ward, obviously read his books when I was younger coming up in the industry. I think kitchen confidential was in every Cook's hands, um, in 2000. And it was a topic of discussion, every bar and every scene, every kitchen line lineup. But, um, you know, it was a powerful book. I think there was a connection there. A lot of us felt, you know, he, he really wrote, um, extremely well when it came to, you know, talking about the dark stuff that happens in restaurants and he was ahead of his time for that. And that was powerful. But if you really look at, you, look at the storyline of, of what he was telling you, you look at the, the, the, the mannerisms of, of the shows that he was on. I think the signs were there and, and what he was dealing with internally, you know, I mean, you look at someone like Robin Williams, that's another one that one saw that coming.
Speaker 2 00:40:40 You know, it just, the list goes on and on and on from chefs to actors, to entertainers, to everyday people. I mean, this is, this is a real, this is a real subject that, that needs, that needs attention. And the only way that you can help people with this is by sharing your story. You know, it's not asking, are you okay because no, one's going to tell you the truth, but I think once you start to be honest and share your candor, um, that's when people start to open up and relate, because it's like, yeah, me too. I feel that I'm not crazy.
Speaker 4 00:41:11 Absolutely. You know, speaking of some of those other chefs, one of the things that I think about when watching a show like top chef, we mentioned you were also on chopped and beat Bobby Flay in which you actually beat Bobby Flay. And I'm not sure I've seen that happen very many times at all. But one of the things that I always kind of wonder about is the relationship building, the mentoring, the community aspect of that behind the scenes that we as viewers don't necessarily get to see a whole lot of. And so like on those shows, I mean, you've connected now with people like Tom Colicchio, Bobby Flay, Graham Elliot, but then it's also the chefs that were there to compete against you and you guys live together. And those things like, you know, Joe Flamm, Tanya Holland, Chris Scott, I've seen, you have continued relationships with them and done cooking, you know, special dinners and things. So what about those offscreen sort of opportunities like friendships and mentoring and collaborations? What do those mean to you in these years since being on TV with them? You know,
Speaker 2 00:42:19 I, I think, you know, you, you develop bonds with people, especially going through something like top chef, um, because you're living together and you're, you're forced into a scenario where, you know, you have to interact because that's what the expectation is. You're not allowed to a book to sit in a room and read, you're not allowed to radio to hide off and put headphones in your, your, your big wants you to sit in the kitchen and talk. So you're forced to bond with these people. Um, and, and it's, it's very, it's a very small glimpse of, you know, your life span. I mean, you're only talking two months, but I I'm a firm believer in, like, if I I'm, I'm always going to be me. I'm always just going to be real. And, you know, if, if you rock me, Rockley, if not, it's okay.
Speaker 2 00:43:03 I'm not, I'm not thirsty for the attention or, or I need the friendship. And I like when things develop naturally, but I know that, you know, you have to drop walls as a person in order to build friendships. You cannot build friendships with new people. Um, if you constantly have walls up or you create false perceptions, you know, you keep them at arms length, they're never going to meet the real you. So, you know, I intentionally dropped some walls, um, as I've become confident in my story and my past, uh, to be able to have these relationships. And a lot of it is because I'm honest, I'm real. And I'm not trying, I'm not looking for anything from you. I'm not, I'm not, I don't need anything from you. You know, I, if we want a friendship, he wants me to talk to them, then we can do that.
Speaker 2 00:43:52 Um, and, and a few of the chefs from the show I've, I've developed that type of relationship, but some from that, from the show, you know, I've, I've met chefs on, on the road traveling and doing events and parties and, you know, someone might Katsuji, uh, I have a great friendship with, and him and I have never filmed a show together, but, you know, we've done so many events together. We've gotten to know each other. And, you know, I called him the other day just to say, how you doing? And, you know, I'm here if you need anything. And I, I think that's something that's really powerful because there's a lot of fake people in the entertainment industry. And, uh, you know, egos really starts to explode when it comes to celebrity status. You know, none of that's real. You still have to walk your dog. You still gotta take care of your kids. You still have to do the dishes. Like you're still a regular person. So, you know, to not be approachable, I think is pointless.
Speaker 4 00:44:46 You were named recently, well, a few months ago now for James Beard as a semifinalist for, well, first congratulations on that. Thank you. But that unfortunately got pushed back because of the pandemic. It was, you know, the winners. I think we're going to be announced in may. Now it's going to be in September, at least as the current plan goes. And I'd have to say that I actually am not sure. I mean, did the James Beard honor is something I'm only aware of because of shows like what we're talking about and as a civilian out here who just enjoys eating the food, but doesn't really know anything about what's happening in the kitchen, other than what those shows, show me. I'm kind of curious, what does that recognition actually mean now? Whether that means something to you personally, and or when, you know, another chef has received that kind of honor, is there a different respect level? Does it mean something to you within the industry amongst yourself?
Speaker 2 00:45:41 Yeah, I think so. You know, I cooked, I cooked my first James Beard dinner in New York city in 2008. And, um, you know, you fast forward 12 years later to finally receive a nomination. This is surreal. I think if that doesn't speak to how hard it is to actually receive that acknowledgement, um, you know, that that's kinda my journey with it. You know, James spear foundation for us, the James spirit awards is like the Emmys for everyday person that watches, you know, entertainment. It's a huge red carpet event. Um, everyone from chefs to, to celebrities, to athletes, show up, to present the awards, you know, and it's a, it's a, it's a recognition of, of the best in your industry with here, within here in the States. You know, we don't have Michelin like they do in Europe, but we only have it in DC, San Francisco, uh, Chicago, like it's very limited on what Michelin is, uh, here at the States.
Speaker 2 00:46:47 So for us, James Beard is our Michelin. It's a recognition. It's, it's a, it's a accreditation that you to receive that kind of outcome accolade is, is, is pretty powerful. You know, for me, being on top chef, uh, is, is, is another achievement, but it's not an accolade. You know, I was, I was a good personality for that season to entertain it. Wasn't really based on, you know, my amazing skill set of what I've accomplished as a, as a professional. It was, it was entertainment, you know, James Beard foundation recognizes your skillset. And, um, you know, to receive that nomination was, was really powerful just because it's something that I had always wanted to receive. And it's, you know, my entire career to get to this point, just to receive the semi-finalist, you know, unfortunately I didn't make the finalist, uh, that was announced, but a lot of good friends did, and I I'm kind of honored just to be on the list. I it's it's, I don't measure myself by recognitions, but that's something that I still feel has a lot of clout, uh, within my peers.
Speaker 4 00:47:59 Okay. That was educational 12 years. And you have to go there to essentially show them what you got. It's not like people just come into your restaurant as a career.
Speaker 2 00:48:10 No, it's, it's a variety of, of all of that, you know, to the James Beard foundation is, um, a tribute to James Beard who was an American chef that revolutionized, um, cooking, uh, here in the States, uh, him and Julia child, uh, we're pioneers and, and, you know, TV and cookbooks, and really bringing French cookery, uh, and, and, and making it regional and making it, you know, what people like Alice Waters did. I mean, James Beard did a lot of things. So when he passed, uh, his brownstone was actually converted into the foundation. So they only host, I'd say maybe a hundred dinners a year. And, um, you know, to be invited to cook at the James Beard house is, is an honor. And you know, many chefs have grace that kitchen. So, you know, I, in my entire career of 20 plus years, I've only cooked there twice. And once was 2008, once was in 2018.
Speaker 2 00:49:12 And, um, you know, it's, it's an honor, but that's not how you get nominated. I mean, that's, that's an opportunity to, to cook at the house, but, you know, to get nominated is, is a collection of, you know, past winners, you know, board members, uh, it's a polling, it's a voting, it's a survey that goes out, you know, people that have eaten at your restaurant, people that have met you, people that have interacted with you. And then they really look at, you know, who are you as a person? What are, what are you bringing to the table? You know, and what category are you being nominated for? Is it best chef, which is what I was, I was very fortunate to be nominated for, or is it, you know, restaurant tour or Samia or best Baker there there's so many different categories. So, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, a number of things and factors that contribute to, to receive a nomination. And yeah, that was, that was a, that was a dream come true just to, just to be a James Beard nominee now, but it doesn't, it doesn't change anything. You know, I, I still have to perform every day. I have to show up. I have to make sure my teams are good and my business is open
Speaker 4 00:50:22 Well, and that brings me to a question about what I see as a lot of hard work that you do, a
Speaker 2 00:50:28 Lot of places, you put your energy, but also how do you find downtime and what are you looking forward to you and Tina, what are you looking forward to when all this stuff clears away a little bit, and you have a chance to go travel somewhere, take a break. What does that look like to you? I'm ready to just go lay on a beach and zone out. I mean, you know, we talked about it a few times. I don't think either of us are ready to get on a plane just yet, but, um, you know, literally just, uh, a trip to Mexico or down to the Caribbean, you know, I'd love to, I'd love to just hit it Puerto Rico or the Dominican and chill out for, for a week. Um, and just check out. But you know, when that happens, that'll happen. It'll come back to life.
Speaker 2 00:51:20 I mean, we we've canceled a lot of things over the last, over the last six months, who knows when it's going to come back. I mean, I had had appearances in Japan and appearances in Mexico that were on the table that, you know, I still have to fulfill those obligations at some point. Um, we just don't know when many people were in that situation, but yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready to just turn my phone off and, you know, have a week to myself, understood. This brings us to our last question, brother. It's a variation of a question that I ask every guest as the final question or conversation, and it has to do with what humanity is about, which is humanist and creativity. There's a lot of creativity in the work that you do, a lot of humanity and what you shared about your story.
Speaker 2 00:52:08 And so my, the way I'm going to ask you this question today is what at heart matters most to you about how you live your life. So that might speak to core values or something, or however you interpret it, but what heart matters most to, you know, that that's easy. You know, for me, that's something that I've, I've really come to the realization in the last couple of years and every day I'm battling with that. But I feel like the three, three things that are most important in my life are a faith family and work and in that order, but I screw that order up every day. I mean, it's a constant struggle to, to keep it prioritize that way. You know, I really feel like, you know, any, any time I'm off base is because those priorities are out of order or, you know, they're not on the table. Right. I appreciate this whole conversation. I appreciate your making the time brother. And, uh, it's been so good to, to be able to connect with you. Thank you for being here. Absolutely. Yeah. Looking forward to hopefully get to the studio and, you know, being a person
Speaker 0 00:53:13 And then being able to do some photos and all that good stuff.
Speaker 2 00:53:22 That was my conversation with Jeff brother luck. And today's two conversation of
Speaker 1 00:53:26 Humanism creativity. You can learn more about brother and the show notes published on our
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